What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

For any technical or bow tuning related queries and information.....

Moderators: Jakkas, Guardian, hawkster, Gerhard, Ranger, jcdup, James

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby Volmaan » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:09 am

Bernhardt wrote:.


Lastly something that came to me this week. Majority of standard broadheads are American based companies and they cator for American hunters. Majority of Americans shoot at 60# and shoot arrows between 380 and 500gr. If you start to shoot a 80# bow with 700gr arrows, your broadhead is under designed and will break.

I could not understand why I have never had a Rage broadhead fail on me, but so many guys hate them because they break or bend. It is beacause they are not designed to take that force.



Baie goeie punt
Bowtech Reign 7,70lbs
Hoyt Carbon Defiant Turbo 70lbs
Volmaan
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Pretoria

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby MrBallistic » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:52 am

Philip Roets wrote:Vick, ek dink om net na spoed te kyk en gewig uit te haal gaan trek lengte, ponde en boog IBO, n grooter gesamemtlike faktor wees as net pyl gewig. Dit is hoekom ek dit in verskillende kattegorië opgebreek het in my oorsponklike inset. Ek dink nie mens kan n dames boog of kinder boog in dieselfde spoed kattegorie asseseer as n 70# speedbow nie. N boog met n IBO van 310ft/s is nie n vreeslike stadige IBO vir n kind nie. So wat is dan vinnig vir kinders of vroue wat dalk net 45# kan trek teen 26” DL? Of besluit mens deur die bank almal word oor dieselfde kam geskeer en net die van ons wat of swaar ponde op n vinnige boog kan trek of lang DL boë skiet kan ooit gesien word as vinnig.

Ek dink mens moet binne beperkings van verskillende groepe boog skutters afsonderlikke perke hê as mens net na spoed kyk. Die oorspronklike vraag noem nie dat dit vir jag is nie, so energie en momentum hoef ook nie deel van die gesprek te wees nie.


What BH?
A 310fps 7"BH bow now at 5" will generate 330fps on the same bow.
This thinking went into the design of the Mathews ladies Avail and the kids Stoke models. By changing the BH's the IBO's be comparable to an IBO 340 fps bow. By dropping the BH the power stroke becomes longer for the shorter DL archer and the bow is used more efficiently. The same arrow now becomes much faster and will most likely be under-spined.
Going to your question then Philip it's relevant to the equipment used.
MATHEWS HALON X COMP
MATHEWS HALON X PRO
MATHEWS Z7 MAGNUM
I shoot because I can, I want to and I enjoy therefore I continue shooting!!!!
MrBallistic
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby Mad Max » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:15 am

According to the SABA BProc training material the reactiontime of an alert and nervous Impala is just under 100 milliseconds from the time the shot is fired, requiring an arrow travelling @ 395fps to beat that. That speed is obviously not achievable.

We always advocate not to shoot at an Impala that is nervous and alert. Again the SABA training material indicate based on experiments with a high speed camara the reaction time of a relaxed Impala is around 200 milliseconds.

Again referring to the said training material one can only mitigate the the effect of string jumping abd according to the table based 100 milisecond reaction time, one need 200+ fps for 20yards or 275+ fps to mitigate the impact of string jumping.

So if we advocate only to shoot at a relaxed Impala with a reaction time of the 200 milliseconds as suggested, you can get away with an arrow travelling at a lower speed to have the same mitigating effect. This means that you should achieve the same mitigating result with a slower traveling arrow as the Impala only start teacting after an additional 100 milliseconds.

Therefore an arrow travelling at 250 to 260 fps ahould allow sufficient time to mitigate the impact of string jumping if yo limit your shooting distance to 30y.

Now back to the question, based on the responses a range can be established - 280+ fast and 260- slow.

On that basis then, assuming appropriately aimed slow arrow travelling a 250-260fps should be able to mitigate the effect of string jumping.
Last edited by Mad Max on Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reign 6 70# 618gn 263fps 95ke 0.72 slugs
RPM 360 70# 618gn 272fps 102ke 0.75 slugs
PSE OMEN MAX 80# 950gn 233fps 114ke 0.99 slugs
GT Kinetic XT Big Game 200 spine 618gn FOC 15%
Carbon Core Nightmares 150 spine 950gn FOC 20%
Mad Max
Specialist
Specialist
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:14 am
Location: Alberton

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby sPRINGHAAS » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:16 am

If I look at hunting my opinion is that fast is fast and slow is slow! If you run a 100m at age 70 in 14seconds... that is pretty fast for your age, but does that make you fast accross a 100m? I don't think so. The different setups are used to hunt the same animals. So for me a fast arrow is for instance faster than 280fps irrespective of what your setup is. A 40# setup at 26" will most likely never shoot a fast hunting arrow. You can however say that it is a fast arrow option FOR THE SETUP, but that doesn't make it a fast hunting arrow.
Mathews Monster MR7
sPRINGHAAS
Specialist
Specialist
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:53 pm
Location: Mpumalanga

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby Volmaan » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:18 am

My definisie van vinnige pyl: Hy het die bok getref voor hy uit die pad uit kon spring
Stadige pyl: Raai....
Bowtech Reign 7,70lbs
Hoyt Carbon Defiant Turbo 70lbs
Volmaan
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:30 am
Location: Pretoria

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby Mad Max » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:33 am

Volmaan wrote:My definisie van vinnige pyl: Hy het die bok getref voor hy uit die pad uit kon spring
Stadige pyl: Raai....


:thumb:
Reign 6 70# 618gn 263fps 95ke 0.72 slugs
RPM 360 70# 618gn 272fps 102ke 0.75 slugs
PSE OMEN MAX 80# 950gn 233fps 114ke 0.99 slugs
GT Kinetic XT Big Game 200 spine 618gn FOC 15%
Carbon Core Nightmares 150 spine 950gn FOC 20%
Mad Max
Specialist
Specialist
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:14 am
Location: Alberton

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby Bernhardt » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:34 am

Mad Max wrote:According to the SABA BProc training material the reactiontime of an alert and nervous Impala is just under 100 milliseconds from the time the shot is fired, requiring an arrow travelling @ 395fps to beat that. That speed is obviously not achievable.

We always advocate not to shoot at an Impala that is nervous and alert. Again the SABA training material indicate based on experiments with a high speed camara the reaction time of a relaxed Impala is around 200 milliseconds.

Again referring to the said training material one can only mitigate the the effect of string jumping abd according to the table based 100 milisecond reaction time, one need 200+ fps for 20yards or 275+ fps to mitigate the impact of string jumping.

So if we advocate only to shoot at a relaxed Impala with a reaction time of the 200 milliseconds as suggested, you can get away with an arrow travelling at a lower speed to have the same mitigating effect. This means that you should achieve the same mitigating result with a slower traveling arrow as the Impala only start teacting after an additional 100 milliseconds.

Therefore an arrow travelling at 250 to 260 fps ahould allow sufficient time to mitigate the impact of string jumping if yo limit your shooting distance to 30y.

Now back to the question, based on the responses a range can be established - 280+ fast and 260- slow.

On that basis then, assuming appropriate aiming a slow arrow travelling a 250-260fps should be able to mitigate the effect of string jumping.


Mad Max that is the guideline yes, but I have seen alert Impalas not move on a shot and Impalas that don't look alert move like a thunderbolt. Where the speed difference makes a huge difference is how much it will move before the arrow hits.

In a previous dsscussion we tried to explain that yes there is not much difference in time of impact if you calculate it, but if you relate that to camera frames it surprizes you. For example:

Compare a 250fps to a 290fps arrow at 20 yards. On the camera shooting 25 frames per second the 250fps arrow will hit a frame later. If I look at my videos where I shot 293fps and had a great shot and then on impact move one frame on, you will certainly in most cases be in trouble. Therefore I like fast arrows as I can cater for the worst case of string jump and at least know I hit the Impala a frame earlier.
Hunting:
MONSTER MR7 @ 78# and 28.5"
Boss Hog sight 5 pin
NAP Apache rest
GoldTip Kinetic 200 @ 540gr
Rage Hypodermic, SlickTricks, Nitron, Stinger buzzcut & Killzone

Field:
Bowtech Boss @ 60#
Spot Hog Real deal 5 pin
NAP Nighthawk rest
CC Nightmare 350 @ 400gr
User avatar
Bernhardt
Sergeant First Class
Sergeant First Class
 
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Re: What is considered a fast ir a slow arrow

Postby MrBallistic » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:41 pm

Volmaan wrote:My definisie van vinnige pyl: Hy het die bok getref voor hy uit die pad uit kon spring
Stadige pyl: Raai....

Funny this but carries ring of truth in it.
I see a lot of comparisons done to the impala, understandable because it has an amazing reaction time, but truly it has no relevance.

My feelings are this: if I have a set up at 240fps, yes it may be considered slow but in what context?
If the plan is to hunt Blesbuck, this speed is then adequate to that animal and "fast enough". If the hunter resigns themselves to know the capabilities of their set up they won't have a problem, Now attempting an impala, not impossible, but the likelihood of success diminishes considerably. When asked this question it must be taken according to what criteria.
A 310fps bow or 40#, 26DL can achieve 270fps with the right BH, light arrow and well tuned setup but will it be effective to hunt with?
Again relevance.......
MATHEWS HALON X COMP
MATHEWS HALON X PRO
MATHEWS Z7 MAGNUM
I shoot because I can, I want to and I enjoy therefore I continue shooting!!!!
MrBallistic
Master Sergeant
Master Sergeant
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:34 pm

Previous

Return to Bow Tuning and Technical Talk